NBS #138: The Two Tests Every Mold Patient Should Know About

What if the reason you still don't feel well isn't just your body... but the place you spend the most time?

In this episode of Never Been Sicker, Michael Rubino sits down with functional medicine physician Kurt N. Woeller, DO, FMAPS to discuss why environmental exposures, especially mold and mycotoxins, are so often overlooked in medicine. Together, they explore why many patients continue searching for answers while an important piece of the puzzle is never investigated.

Dr. Woeller explains why symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, headaches, poor sleep, digestive issues, allergies, and chronic inflammation can persist when environmental exposure isn't addressed. He also shares why testing both the home and the body creates a much clearer picture than either one alone.

The conversation covers real patient stories, common mistakes people make when they suspect mold, and why removing ongoing exposure is often one of the most important steps toward recovery.

Whether you're struggling with chronic illness, supporting a loved one, or simply want to understand how your environment impacts your health, this episode offers practical insight into a topic more physicians are beginning to recognize.

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CHAPTERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:19 Meet Dr. Kurt Woeller
01:08 Why mold is missed in medicine
03:19 Biggest mistakes people make after mold exposure
05:08 Can hidden mold make you sick?
06:43 Why environmental medicine matters
08:18 Why you can't heal while ongoing exposure continues
09:29 Why testing the body alone isn't enough
12:07 Why testing the home alone isn't enough
14:06 How combining both tests changes treatment
16:14 Why comprehensive testing matters
18:17 One camera angle isn't enough
20:41 Test, don't guess
22:52 How targeted testing can save time and money
28:58 Why data still needs clinical guidance
29:28 Real patient success story
36:01 Why people normalize feeling sick
39:08 Common symptoms of mold exposure
45:48 Rapid-fire questions
48:23 Where to find Dr. Kurt Woeller
50:07 Closing thoughts

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Kurt N. Woeller, DO, FMAPS (Fellow of Medical Academy of Pediatric & Special Needs), is a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, integrative and functional medicine physician, and biomedical autism treatment specialist in clinical practice for nearly three decades. 

Dr. Woeller is the Chief Medical Officer for Mosaic Diagnostics Laboratory (https://mosaicdx.com), and the education director and main course developer for his Integrative Medicine Academy (https://integrativemedicineacademy.com), an online academy for health professionals.

His private practice, Sunrise Functional Medicine (https://mysunrisecenter.com), focuses on specialized laboratory testing and interventions for individuals with complex health disorders such as autism and other special needs conditions (e.g., mitochondrial dysfunction), autoimmune, gastrointestinal, and neurological problems, as well as chronic health conditions associated with environmental exposures, including mold and mycotoxins. 

🔵 Follow him:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@integrativemedicineacademy.
Substack: https://drwoeller.substack.com/
Functional Medicine Doc Talk podcast: https://functionalmedicinedoctalk.com. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You're not gonna be able to shoot my name is Michael Rubino.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

I'm on a personal mission to make sure that you don't get sick inside your own home.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

I knew there was something wrong. I'm just so relieved there's something that you can do about it.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hello and welcome to another episode of Never Been Sicker. I'm your host, indoor air quality expert, Michael Rubino. And today's very special guest, Dr. Kurt Woller. Dr. Kurt, thanks for thanks a lot for taking time out of your busy day to be here with us.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Yeah, thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

So, how often do you see patients who have been sick for years before anyone considers that their environment might be contributing?

SPEAKER_03 0:44

More often than I'd like. I mean, it's it's so common. It's it's most of my practice these days as many practitioners in this particular integrative and functional medicine space. It's who we see. I mean, these are the people who have been sick, many of them for years, sometimes decades, who are not getting help. I mean, I also work with the special needs community that mostly includes children with autism, that can be teenagers and adults as well. And oftentimes they're compromised by mold and mycotoxin exposure. So it's quite complicated, but it's, you know, unfortunately, it's it's more common than people realize with the exposures from these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, no, we see it on our side too. It's extremely common. Um, and a lot of people overlook it, which is really what I want to talk about next. Is obviously you as an expert in this field, um, you you're aware of this. You see this all the time. But why do you think so many other doctors treat symptoms without ever asking what's happening inside the home?

SPEAKER_03 1:48

You know, I think that the reality is that this type of information hasn't made it into medical schools, which is unfortunate. Usually they lag behind probably 15, 20 years. Um, it certainly hasn't made its way into more of the conventional circles, you know, being taught at conferences, and even most medical journals aren't talking about it. They recognize mold allergy, and so they'll test for that, but they just don't have the expertise, the knowledge being, you know, them. So um the other thing I think is that it's confusing, you know, it's challenging to understand some of these complexities. And it, you know, it takes time as a practitioner to learn you know what's happening with regards to mold exposure, understanding the toxic nature of mycotoxins which are getting exposed, produced by these molds, and what actually they do in the body. So, you know, it takes it takes a practitioner really extra time and going to conferences and reading different types of medical journals to really pick up on this information. And for most practitioners, particularly conventional doctors who are you know seeing you know a patient every seven minutes, it's just not possible for them to understand the complexities.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

That makes sense. I mean, when you're seeing a patient every seven minutes, uh, you don't really have a whole lot of time to go out and spend to invest in really learning this and understanding it. There's different things you need to know, like what test to use, right? And then you know, once you identify it, then how do you treat it, right? And I think that that that does make sense.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Yeah, I mean, identifying is one thing. And then actually learning how to treat it and help people get well, that's a whole other layer that uh takes it, it it takes a lot of time and understanding to be able to take people to that level.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

When when you think about your patients, you know, what are some of the biggest mistakes they make when they suspect mold exposure?

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Well, first off, sort of underappreciating the significance of it. So thinking that they can continue to live in the home where there is, you know, problems in mold in that their symptoms can be dealt with symptomatically, whether it's taking a medication or changing their diet, or you know, maybe just leaving the house for a period of time and then coming back. Um, I think the other thing is the underappreciation of testing. So they oftentimes don't do enough testing or do the right kind of testing to evaluate the problem. They may have a company that comes in that's just not savvy enough to really look for hidden sources of mold. I've had many people who look around their home and go, well, I don't see anything, so therefore there can't be a problem. They're not appreciating the fact that there could be mold behind a wall or you know, some you know, floorboard or some other you know area in their home. I mean, I think the other thing too is that probably most people I think intuitively know that to confront the issue of mold is complex in that it may require some some steps to be taken that aren't quite comfortable for them. Um it can be highly inconvenient. And so there's probably a little bit of aspect to many people to say, do I really want to go down that path if I don't have to?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah, no, it makes sense. You're right. It is complex, right? There's different layers to this. Um, you you already sort of touched on this question a little bit, but um, you know, in terms of mold-related illness, can you have mold-related illness even if you don't see visible mold? Like it could be hidden behind a wall or something.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Oh, 100%. I mean, that's I mean, that's typically how most people present. Most people aren't necessarily recognizing some mold growing on their wall or a big water stain from their ceiling. They're usually, you know, sick, you know, headaches, fatigue, brain fog, uh, poor sleep, poor digestion, and they just can't figure it out. Now, some people recognize that when they leave their home, they feel better. When they come back, they feel worse. It's fairly obvious if you're in your home or in a room and all of a sudden you're getting allergic, you're your itchy eyes, runny nose, maybe a cough, you know, and that so you can kind of start to recognize that there may be some problem, but that's not how everybody manifests with mold and mycotoxin exposure. It could just be some sort of chronic symptom that they may attribute to something else. I would say by and large, most people, that's how they're presenting. They're not seeing it, but they're feeling it. They're just not quite sure how to put the puzzle pieces together.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yeah, it's so true. I think most people, when they think of mold illness, right, they they expect to have some sort of respiratory symptom, right? Or asthma or something of that nature. And that, you know, we obviously, of course, that exists, but that's not the majority of what we see. How about for you?

SPEAKER_03 6:51

No, it's not. I mean, in fact, if when you have those kind of cases, it's usually easier to recognize. And it's easier for them to recognize because it's obvious, but that's not the majority of cases at all.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah. Why do you believe environmental exposure deserves more attention in medicine today?

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Well, it's such a huge underappreciated problem. I think where we are as a society, and you're hearing it even at the federal level, you're hearing it at most conventional, you know, um medical institutions, they recognize that environmental pollution is a problem. So most people think of that as maybe smog or smoke or maybe pesticides. I mean, those things are fairly obvious. We've known about lead exposure for children being problematic, but many of the other heavy metals that people get exposed to are underappreciated. So, I mean, we have turned a corner to some degree, I think, as a society and as a you know, conventional medical institutions, to recognize that, hey, there's a problem going on in our environment. There's a lot of people that are sick. We just quite can't figure out why so many. We're seeing that even in the discussions of autism, understanding with the rates of autism going up, that there's likely some environmental factors. So, but in my opinion, and many other doctors, such as myself, it's not fast enough. It's not, um, they're not looking at it um as in-depth as it should be, and appreciating the fact that it's much more impactful for a wide variety of people with chronic complex illness than they recognize. And so it's to me, in my feeling, it's absolutely essential. It's got to be an area that doctors look at. It has to be considered from a differential diagnosis standpoint. Otherwise, you're not getting the complete picture.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. If I were to say to you a statement such as you can't effectively treat someone if they're continuously being exposed, would you agree with that statement?

SPEAKER_03 8:47

I see that all the time. I mean, that's, you know, if you have like look at it this way: if you have somebody who has respiratory problems that lives with a smoker, so their respiratory issues are exacerbated by secondhand smoke. You know, it doesn't matter how many inhalers you give them or steroids you give them or whatever exercises or diet you give them, they're not gonna get better unless they actually get away from the smoke. Um, and so either the person who's smoking needs to stop, or they the other person needs to sort of move on, or you know, whatever. It's kind of a maybe a more of a simplistic, but yeah, I mean that is that's true of many things. So, you know, you're not gonna be able to get well if a certain toxin that you're being exposed to is continually in your environment. Um, otherwise you're just putting on band-aids, and that's not going to lead to ultimate uh, you know, ultimate wellness in what most people are seeking.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah, and I think you know, today we've had a lot of evolution in testing, which obviously makes it a lot easier for people to understand getting the data in their home and their body. Why isn't it enough to only test the person?

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Well, for one thing, I mean, everybody's metabolism is a little bit different. And when you're looking at environmental exposure testing, whether it's mycotoxin testing, looking for these things that are in somebody's body or chemicals or heavy metals, these are tests of exposure. But some individuals may metabolize things work more quickly, they may clear things out of their body more quickly, or those toxins get sort of incorporated into body tissue, um, depending on overall efficiency of detoxification. And the problem with that is that you oftentimes miss where perhaps the exposure sources is coming from. What I have found in practice is that when I do mycotoxin testing and I detect a certain level of mycotoxins, I know enough about these things, perhaps what molds may create them. More times than not, these things are coming from their environment, and more times than not they're coming from their home. And you've got to go in and assess the home to see again what the mold spore counts are, where they may be located. Is it in a basement? Is it in a kitchen? Is it in a bathroom? Is it in the master bedroom? I've had kids where we've done testing where it turns out that it's actually in their bedroom. And when you put these tests together, you get a much more complete picture. So it's okay, and most doctors will start with a test that they give to their patient to say, let's test your exposure levels. But then again, okay, now we've did we've determined that there is exposure, let's go find out the source. Look, I do the same kind of thing with other exposures. I've done heavy metal tests where you're like, okay, where's the exposure source coming from? If you've got high mercury, you've got high lead, you've got high cadmium, sometimes it's coming from their water. So we may do home water testing. If we've got, you know, other types of exposures, you may find out that somebody is being exposed, you know, in the community they're living in, if they're spraying with pesticides and these types of things. So the the other types of tests to try to track down the source is really important because back to your point, if you're continually being exposed, well, you're not going to get well.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yeah, no, that's a great point. You know, especially with the California fires, too. You know, you've seen crazy amounts of heavy metals in people's homes in their dust. You know, so it's it is important to be able to actually test for these things. And on the flip side, why isn't it enough to only test the house? Why do we have to test the body?

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Well, because if you're being exposed, let's say you've got mold in your home, and that mold is producing mycotoxins, for example, you want to see if you're accumulating those. I mean, what is your body burden to the presence of these particular mycotoxins? And then it also has to be correlated to the clinical presentation. So you might have four people in the same home, but they all they may not all necessarily have clinical symptoms of mold exposure. So it's important to get an idea about what those molds are actually producing, what the total body burden is in that particular individual. And then with any test, it always has to be tied back to their clinical presentation. So again, it's that it's that comprehensive assessment that is most needed in these particular complicated cases. I look at it as a lot oftentimes when you're looking at lab testing, is it helps the more tests you do, helps to create a more a better image of something, kind of getting more of a three-dimensional view. And I've often referred to laboratory testing in this particular way. It's not that we're, you know, running tests that are unnecessary, but we're running tests that have impactful information that we can act upon. And that's what we're looking for. You're testing the home. That is information you can act upon. We're doing mycotoxin testing. That is information you can act upon. When you put those two together, again, it expands the view and gives us much more clinical insight.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

I couldn't agree more. I think it's very valuable. Um, you know, and I'm curious: like, how does that change your clinical decision-making process? When you have both labs together, how does that help you help the patients?

SPEAKER_03 14:38

Well, again, it all goes back to their clinical presentation. Am I dealing with somebody who may be chronically fatigued, has chronic headaches, poor sleep, body aches and pains, you know, those things, or are they dealing with more respiratory problems, things that are more obvious from an allergic standpoint? There's different ways you may address that based on their symptom picture. The other thing, too, is we want to find out is it their home that is actually the source of the problem? Because if it is, then there's some decisions that have to be made. Do they need to get out of the home for a period of time, have somebody come in or remediate it, figure out how severe it is? You know, again, it all comes down to the severity of exposure. I've had some individuals where their exposure to mold wasn't coming from their home, it was coming from their work. I've had kids where it wasn't the mold wasn't coming from their home, it was actually coming from their school. So that all comes out in just you know, taking a patient history and working through some of the logistical aspects of this, trying to determine where their exposure sources may come from. But the conversation begins through that initial assessment. And that conversation really begins when you start to look for exposure with regards to these mycotoxins and what their total body burden is.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah, no, I think it's it's really such an amazing thing for people to be able to buy this bundle, get everything, all the information together. Um, and you know, you and I have been sort of behind the scenes working on this for a long time now. Well, I'm curious what excites you the most about this opportunity and being able to, you know, not only help patients get both sides of the information at a better cost, um, but what excites you about just being able to have this more available for folks?

SPEAKER_03 16:33

Well, it's being able to help more people and really being able to expedite their healing process. You know, I have been in practice for many, many years, and you know, I've done some, there's been different mold tests out there. I've never found them to be over, you know, overly reliable and sometimes just are conflicting overall as far as their information. What I've actually found with the dust test is when I look at the results that come back, I look at what's showing up on the mycotox profile, I'm looking at the clinical history. I have so many cases where the information is matching up with regards to the mold species in the home that are known to be producing the mycotoxins that are now in their body. And then you again tie that back to their symptom picture. There's another test that I often do in clinical practice called the organic acids test, and that's another test that Mosaic Diagnostics has. It's a urine test that looks at different metabolic markers, but there are certain markers on the organic acid test that are directly linked to mold exposure, like aspergillus and fusarium mold. And I have a number of cases where you'll see those elevated aspergillus markers on the organic acid test. You'll see mycotoxins that correlate to those aspergillus markers, and then when you look at the dust test results, you'll see that aspergillus markers, those uh type of aspergillus, are producing those or known to produce those mycotoxins. And what the organic acid test is picking up on, too, is the high level of exposure in what's you know causing people oftentimes to have an overgrowth of aspergillus mold, for example, in their digestive system. So those three tests are something I do quite often in practice. But the relationship that we have with regards to the mycotoxin, the dust test, that in itself is incredibly powerful.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And you know, it before this whole partnership, obviously people had to kind of find both tests. Um, you know, they have having to find someone like you who says, hey, you got to do both tests, um, which unfortunately just it the access wasn't there. And now that we have this access, you know, um, I'm curious, why do you think this combined approach gives the patient more value than you know just doing one test or the other?

SPEAKER_03 19:06

You know, one test is one camera angle. And uh it might be a really good, important camera angle, but it's one camera angle of things. So again, if I do a just a mycotox test and I pick up on mycotoxins, whether it's gliotoxin or mycophenolic or okrotoxin, etc. I might suspect where the exposure is coming from, but I don't really know. And that's why we need to do the home assessment to be able to rule out or rule in the home as the exposure source. By and large, that's where most people are spending their time. And that's where most likely they're gonna get exposure. A few of those instances I mentioned of a child in school or somebody getting exposed to work, those are really rare. So by and large, it's it's these exposures are coming from the environment within their home. And if we don't look at these things comprehensively, things just get missed. There's assumptions that are made, and then you're trying to implement treatment based on just limited data, and people often don't get well. And so they spend, you know, they spend an inordinate amount of time and money, and they still are sick. And that that's not acceptable to me. I know it's not acceptable to you, uh, it's not acceptable to us, and we're really trying to change that narrative to say, hey, listen, you know, be more expansive in your testing. This is a complicated discussion, but it becomes less complicated when you actually get the data that helps to move the narrative forward, in that there is real exposure sources, you know, for you in this particular circumstance. It comes is coming from your home, so that conversation needs to be had of what to do about it. And that's where you guys come in too.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah, no, it's an important discussion, too. I mean, obviously, first off, we have this uh tests don't guess, right? I think that's the the number one thing. And unfortunately, a lot of people get into guessing um because they don't have the data or don't know that the data exists or that they should go get it. And then they start making calls because, you know, they think they have an issue, uh, but they don't know if they have an issue or or what to what extent they have an issue. And then people spend real money, you know, trying to treat it um without actually knowing what's the most effective way to do so. And uh, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure you've seen horror stories in that, and I I've seen it myself. And it's one of the reasons why I was so excited to to bring this together, so that people can can access the information really at the start of their journey. You know, do is is my house even the problem before they go and chase uh you know, butterflies or something fixing the house when it was the school or something else. I think really having that right starting point helps people make better decisions. I'm curious your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Yeah, you can save people thousands of dollars in years, you know, in in chasing ghosts and and and we've been able to eliminate or at least reduce the possibility of that happening. And that it's been so needed and necessary that it's been frustrating for years to to try to make people understand the significance of some of these impacts and why even though they might not smell something or see something in their home again, if it's if we're getting information coming off of a mycotox test and we suspect the home, it's you know, oftentimes you know, again, having the home assessed is so important because as to what you mentioned, you may go in and realize, hey, it's really not your home. You know, it's coming from somewhere else. Uh and again, they can spend years trying to treat these problems without any resolution. So I'm I'm grateful for it. I mean, I've already seen the impact in my own clinical practice. I know working, you know, at Mosaic Diagnostics, there's many other practitioners who've also seen these relationships as well. So it's important to get the information out there.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Yeah, I I want to actually go off script a little bit and ask, you know, more so about some philosophical questions, if you don't mind. Um, one of the things that really prompted me to want to create the dust test in the first place was really this people really had a hard time understanding from an investment standpoint what to do, you know, kind of piggybacking off the chasing ghost for a minute. Um, and I'm curious about your philosophy on this, if you follow me. So let's say the dust test shows you've got high levels of aspergillus. And let's say, you know, the mycotoxin test says you have high levels of ocrotoxin A, right? And so, in theory, then you would want to figure out the source of that Aspergillus. But you know, a home's gonna have some mold, it's gonna have other molds that that are likely present in some quantities. And do you feel comfortable clinically if Aspergillus seems to be the problem based upon those two results? If somebody has you know some slight elevation of cladysporium, you know, off in another area, and they're tight on funds, would would you suggest that you know remediating the aspergillus that seems to be causing the problem, let's say in the attic, pulling into the HVAC system would be a smarter move uh over than you know trying to handle everything?

SPEAKER_03 24:41

Is that does that make sense? When you say handle everything, what what do you mean by that? Handle meaning symptom-wise or just looking at the mycotoxins on the urine test?

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, so when I say handle everything, I'm talking more so about addressing the home, right? So they've got some slight elevations of cladosporium, let's say, budgets are limited, right? The okrotoxin A seems to be showing up as the as the issue in the mycotoxin panel. Uh Aspergillus is elevated, you know, let's say in the HVAC, and we got to clean the HVAC to address that. You know, what's what's your philosophy like? How because for me, what's exciting about it is being able to be targeted and really target and reduce the specific exposures for people.

SPEAKER_03 25:27

What are your thoughts on that? Um that makes perfect sense to me. And really what you're often doing is you're going after the areas that are obviously problematic with regards to additional testing, like the mycotoxin testing, and again the clinical issues that may be going on with that patient. We're always prioritizing things often. And so if you if there is an area in the HVAC that seems the most problematic, then yeah, I have no problem in uh fixing that first, addressing that first. And you're right, you know, there's mold around, right? None of our we don't live in a bubble, our homes aren't a bubble, the outside world's not a bubble, so we're gonna have exposures. Um, and so if we can isolate an area that seems to be the likely source, that work on that first. That might be the resolution. If you need to go further, then you can go further. But you know, I I've had patients, and you've probably seen it too. I mean, they've had their entire homes ripped apart and moved out for weeks and months, and you know, to come back, and you know, it wasn't resolved, uh, and it was just way overdone. So if we could be much more targeted, more selective, I'm 100% on board with that.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

And I think that that is the power that the dust test and the mycotoxin panel combined can actually help because then you can literally see very it's very personal, right? You see exactly what's going on with this person, and you see exactly what's going on with their home, which allows you to be more targeted, right? Because then you can kind of guide an inspector to help you figure out where the specific sources that are elevated on those, you know, actually are. And I think that's where I see the magic. Um, and obviously, look, it's it's very new. There's a there's a lot to learn as more and more people are utilizing it as a package deal. But that's where I am most excited about because I see that magic unfolding where people can really wrap their head around, you know, how do they fix their homes up where they can make the most impact.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Right. And the relationship for us is great because it helps to be able to expand our influence in making people more aware about the real problems of mold and mycotoxin exposure. These things are not benign. That doesn't mean everybody who has an elevated mycotoxin on a urine test is you know immediately chronically ill or even acutely ill from the presence of that mycotoxin. Again, these are tests of detection, they don't define an illness. You know, you have to again go back to the the the application to the you know the clinical presentation to really be able to dig to dig deeper. However, these mycotoxins are toxic by nature, so they're certainly not beneficial, and they do point to a problem of exposure. And it whether it's trying to work with somebody who's symptomatic or somebody doing these tests from just a wellness longevity standpoint, you got to chase down the source as best as possible and try to eliminate that source as best as possible, just like you would any other toxins. I mean, how many people want to be walking around with high lead or high arsenic or high mercury? They may not be symptomatic, but eventually the longer these things are accumulated in the body, the greater the chance there is of some type of harm occurring. So that's the power of additional expansive testing and the ability to look at the home as for not everybody, but in most cases, the primary source of that exposure.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

No, it makes great sense, and I really appreciate what you shared there because I think it's really important for people, like you know, really getting the data is a very good step, but obviously you still need a doctor, right? You know, having the data is one thing, but yeah, you you need to you need to work with a practitioner who could actually help you with those next steps, right? And so I think that's that's really important. Without revealing identities, can you share a patient story where environmental testing changed everything for them?

SPEAKER_03 29:46

Well, I just had a recent case. I've had so many over the years. Uh actually a recent case was a family that we had done a well, we found first, I mean, one of the first tests I do, and now I'm going, I'm just talking, I'm going back to my clinical practice, right? So um, I'll often do that organic acid test that I mentioned. And there was definitely some elevated mold markers on that particular test. When I was having a consultation with a family, there was clearly a problem that they had recognized in the home. There was some water damage on a particular wall outside the bathroom, and maybe I think there was also a water stain on the ceiling. Now, this was a rental property, which we know can always be challenging to sort of get out of the leases for some of these places. So a mycotox test was done, and sure enough, high levels of of mycotoxin show up. And so we rec I recommended they actually do a dust test. And what the dust test showed was it showed high levels of you know molds that were linked to what we saw in the organic acid test linked to the mycotox test. Many of them were Astrogillus uh molds and or mycotoxins, excuse me. And it turns out, although it didn't originally come up in my consultation, that the child that I was primarily being consulted with was having a lot of behavioral issues, sleeping problems, attention issues, and wasn't having sort of classic allergic reactions. You wouldn't, you know, there wasn't any sneezing or respiratory problems, it was more behavioral issues. When it the family eventually moved out. So because it was a rental, they were actually able to get out of the place, they were able to break their lease. And I talked to them maybe a couple months afterwards. They're now in a new place. The child is much better behaved, um, sleeping better, better attention. But what it turns out, which never really came up initially in the conversation, was that the parents felt better. Now they weren't really having attention problems and brain fog issues, they were having more respiratory issues, they were having the more typical symptoms secondary to mold allergy or you know, reactions. Um, and they felt much better. In fact, the entire family, you know, had significant improvement in their overall health. So that was a in that particular family, they were lucky to be able to have gotten out of the home that they were in so quickly. Um I've unfortunately I still have some families that can't get out. Um either it's because of financial issues or they can't break their rental contract, whatever it may be. Um, there's unfortunately we go back to the they're still living in the environment trying to deal with their symptoms, and they're just things aren't aren't improving because they're continually getting exposed. So, I mean, there's so many cases like this that um, and you probably see it too, you know, you could have those conversations with people to say, listen, that your home's a real problem. You need to you need to get out for a while. Um, and you know, it comes down to you know individual choice and individual ability to do that sometimes, and it's tough.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

I think the other beneficial thing, you know, you mentioned all these renters kind of stuck in this problem. I see it too. And I think when they have the the data to share, right, with their landlord or or unfortunately an attorney, if they have to go that route, I think their case becomes a lot stronger that, you know, they have a medical necessity to break their lease. Yeah. You know, unless the place can be restored.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

You know, if I go back in time, so when I I started practicing, I've been in practice about 30 years. And I this was a few years after being in practice. What the first case I remember that really tipped me off at that time to the severity of mold exposure from a chronic illness standpoint is I had a woman come in who was living in a condominium complex. She was an attorney herself, and she was probably the sickest person that I had seen just sort of walking around, you know, sort of being in the hospital. Um, symptomatic, very symptomatic, highly reactive to chemicals, headaches, can't sleep, brain fog, I mean fatigued, I couldn't believe. And it turns out, you know, she actually saw mold. So, and she could see the the the water damage on her house. And then it was revealed eventually that there was serious mold. I can't remember now if it was stocky or not, if it was just some other. But she was really, really symptomatic. In fact, she was the first patient I had dealt with that really brought the whole mold scenario um into my view. And there was a lawsuit, you know, involved. And back in those days, I mean, they they really fought it um big time, the condominium complex really. They hired attorneys, so it was quite nasty. Um, I never really knew what happened to her, but that particular case sort of opened up my eyes to the real problems that eventually led to me starting to research and study this whole particular area much more in depth. Um and you know, unfortunately, these things still exist. I mean, people are still fighting, you know, trying to get out of their leases or you know, whatever. But that was a long, long time ago. And I mean, I saw a few cases in the hospital during my training that were fungal infection related as well from environmental sources. So these are serious problems for some people. Not everybody is going to be deadly ill from these exposures, but you don't have to be deadly ill from you know, in order to have problems, you can just be, you know, compromised with regards to your health to be able to function, or a child is being impacted. I mean, that's you know, I see that all the time. Many of these autistic kids are super sensitive to these types of exposures. So yeah, there's a lot to learn, but there's we we know a lot more than we did 10, 20, 30 years ago. Um, and now with the sophisticated testing that you know you guys are providing and the mycotoxin testing that we're providing, again, we can bring these together and are bringing these together to get a much more comprehensive view of things.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Yeah, totally. No, it's it's it's really incredible. I mean, what you said though, with you know, people getting sick and being in these tough positions, um it made me realize that this impacts people's quality of life. Whether you're really sick, acutely sick, you know, it's nobody wants to affect their quality of life. However, I find that people tend to normalize these things. Um I'm curious for your thoughts on that. Yeah, I can't tell you how many people they they go through this journey, they come out the other side, and even the people that said they were fine and they were experiencing those symptoms, and it was just their kids or just their spouse, you know, they report that. Oh my, you know, oh my goodness, I feel so much better. I didn't even realize I had these these symptoms. Do you see that quite a bit, this normalization of this lack of quality of life?

SPEAKER_03 37:16

It's very normal. I mean, I mean, we're we're normalizing all kinds of you know chronic health problems. I mean, it's not just from mold and mycotoxins, it's from many things. So, yeah, I mean, we have an epidemic of normalizing the abnormal. I mean, these these different complex, you know, medical issues that people overlook, again, they don't appreciate, or their spouse or their friends, or you know, extended family members don't appreciate. Um yeah, unfortunately. And this is something I've seen within the medical profession where they normalize it. Um and that comes from not appreciating it. What's worse is the people who get gaslit because of that. And and that's what's really tragic is that you have somebody who is suffering that people won't listen to and they suffer for years, and there's answers, and they just can't get to those answers because they themselves are so you know compromised, and and whether it's brain fog or memory issues or whatever it may be, um that's the real tragedy.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah. Yeah, I actually was wondering too, because I think one of the most popular things people ask is about symptoms, right? And you mentioned earlier that symptoms are so widely sweeping when it comes to mold and mycotoxin exposure. Um, and obviously there's you know other co-infections, there's you know, genetic factors, like there's a lot of variables here. But I'm curious if you if you had to guess, if you had to, you know, kind of guess in terms of the symptoms you see frequently. Starting with acute, like I want to go category by category, acute, you know, medium, and then more severe. Starting with acute, I wonder what are the top acute symptoms that you would tell somebody, hey, go get this dust test and mycotoxin bundle. Let's see if some of these acute symptoms are are environmentally exposure related?

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Well, first off, you'd have to think about acute allergy symptoms. So somebody who is having wheezing, some respiratory, maybe shortness of breath, a cough, nasal congestion, um, you know, itchy eyes, just sort of, you know, allergic reactivity. We've all had that, right? We've all experienced that hay fever, whatever, but it's very specific to a specific area, either in their home or just in their home. Okay, they could be in their home and having this kind of problem, or they're in a specific room in their home. I just had one of those cases where that type of reaction was occurring from somebody within a specific bedroom. When they went to the rest of the house, not so much. They felt much better when they were out of the home, but it was in this specific bedroom that were they were most reactive. So, I mean, that's pretty obvious from an allergic standpoint and a reactive airway standpoint. From an acute standpoint in other areas, probably the big one would be uh brain fog and physical and mental energy problems, just not being able to comprehend or be as you know efficient from you know a memory standpoint. I'll give you a quick example. I had a patient who they had a home office and they'd obviously be in this office space, you know, multiple times a week working. Well, they ended up having a problem for about a week. They started recognizing that they weren't feeling well, and the most of the issues wasn't respiratory, it was I'm really having a hard time focusing at my computer. And I just feel kind of lightheaded and brain foggy, what you know, that that kind of type of symptom. And so what ended up happening was was looking around for water stains, there was none. And now in this particular case, you've probably seen similar circumstances. It turns out that they had a houseplant sitting on their desk next to their computer. They open they pull up the houseplant, and under the container was mold. And told them to throw it out, okay, and they ended up taking some glutathione for about a week, and that was it. Okay. Their brain fog, their headache, their memory issues, the difficulty sitting at the computers was gone. And it was coming from a moldy houseplant. And it impacted them almost immediately. I'm not sure exactly why, maybe you know why all of a sudden it just sort of coalesced into a problem that this mold in this houseplant is just kicking out this these toxins. But it it impacted this individual is very was a it was very distinct. So those those would probably be the most obvious things from an acute standpoint. From a chronic standpoint, go ahead if you wanted to say something. I don't know if you had any.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

No, I was gonna say yeah, that I was gonna answer the house uh plant uh question once and for all, so you could we could uh everybody could put that to bed. But basically, you know, the material itself that the plants typically go in, the pots, right? They're they're semi-porous. So they hold moisture pretty good. And then in the soil, obviously, mold is already abundant. And then you have wet soil, because every time you basically water the plant, it's gonna get damp, and that moisture is gonna get locked in by the amount of soil that's in the pot and just the pot itself being semi-porous. So it starts to grow in there pretty, pretty uh well. And unfortunately, you know, that means that houseplants, you know, are sort of from a mole perspective, not the healthiest option, although look very nice and of course give off some oxygen.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

What was interesting in that case was this was not a really big houseplant. I mean, it was a small little you know, table plant. So the problem was seems to be localized to that office space, not in the rest of the house. So that's all that. So to continue this discussion as far as symptoms, right? So if it's if it's an allergic problem, the acute becomes chronic. And typically the respiratory issues, the allergic issues just tend to get worse and worse and worse. And then you know many people will start to get you know frequently sick, so they might complain the fact that, you know, I get sick all the time, my immune system's weak, um, and you know, et cetera. From a chronic standpoint, when you're talking about maybe more other types of symptoms, of course, if somebody has an acute manifestation of memory issues, brain fog, or fatigue, that usually just continues. Then these people start to transition into other issues. It might be just chronic digestive problems becoming more food reactive. All of a sudden they're starting to react to foods that they normally ate without an issue previous to that. We start to see more sensitivity to other types of chemicals, so they become more reactive to perfume or cologne or laundry detergent. One of the classic things with people who have mold, you know, long-term mold exposure is they just seem to become hyper reactors to their environment. To the point where they just they can't walk into a grocery store or a department store without reacting to some type of new smell. So basically they're just becoming overreactive, their detoxification systems are compromised. I've seen people develop a lot of chronic body aches, um, weakness, where their muscle strength is not efficient, they start developing neurological problems or their coordination is compromised. Um, you know, other types of nervous system issues, whether it's fine motor or gross motor skills, can become an issue as well. So it starts to sort of cascade from there. The symptom picture is very broad, but those are sort of the common scenarios that happen with people the longer they're exposed.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

And I know that's not a I know I know that's not a complete list by any means, but believe me, it was it was comprehensive, you know. And thank you for for you know really covering those things. So if you're experiencing any of those symptoms, in your opinion, it'd be a good idea to get this bundle and check the home and the body at the same time. 100%. All right. So uh I'd like to play a couple games, if you don't mind, as we get near the end of this this episode. So um there's I I always like to play rapid fire round. And so we'll start with that. And basically the idea is I'm gonna ask you a question um and you just tell me the first thing that comes to mind. And we do it sort of rapidly, and it's just sort of a fun little game. What's one word that comes to mind when you hear water damage? Uh expensive.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Okay. Most overlooked symptom. Uh fatigue. Yeah, I would say so too. Biggest misconception. I know that's supposed to be the first thing that comes to my mind. That there's not a problem. Yeah, I would say that too. Most valuable test or biomarker.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

To me, the organic acid test is the mycotoxin test, the other test that we have at Mosaic, they're all valuable. The organic acid test is very valuable because it helps to broaden the picture of exposures and metabolic problems.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Oh, that's great. Biggest obstacle patients face fear. Yeah. Um I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

Is fear.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Yeah, I mean it's it's true, right? There's a lot of fear mongering out there, unfortunately. And, you know, people start to get scared of almost everything, and we can't build bubbles around the house, and you can't fix the body overnight, right? So it's just taking the right steps towards that. I couldn't agree more. Um, what gives you the most hope?

SPEAKER_03 48:01

There's well, there's a lot of things. I think the most is the fact that these discussions are happening more and more, that people are becoming more aware of these problems, and it's becoming more recognized within the medical community that these exposures are happening and that they're real, and that there's real patients out there who are suffering. So that gives me hope.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Yeah. Well said. Dr. Kurt Willard, I want to thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to be here with us. I really appreciate it. Uh, a couple things before we go. I want to I want uh people to know where they can find you. Uh, you're a great resource. Um, where can they find you and connect with you? Give us your practice information, and then also tell us where people can buy the you know, the bundle that we've been talking highly about um, you know, today, uh, where they can find that on the website.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

So, how they can reach me is through my private practice at Sunrise Functional Medicine. So, mySunriseCenter.com is our website. Email is scmedicalcenter at gmail.com. You can also look me up online. I mean, I have a lot of videos I developed over the years through Vimeo and YouTube. I have a Substack. If people want to look me up on Substack at drwoller.substack.com. Mosaic Diagnostics, mosaicdx.com. You can just look up mosaic diagnostics as well. Um, you can get all the information about our test as well as our relationship, the bundle that you're mentioning, the mycotoxin and the dust test through our resource section on our website. Uh, and then there's also information embedded um in the mycotoxin section um as well. So all of that information is on that website.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Awesome. Well, thank you again for taking time on your busy day to be here with us. I really appreciate it. I know I always learn a lot talking to amazing people like yourself, and I know the listeners do too. So thank you for everything you've shared. It's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me, and we'll see you soon.